Curse

AeroLion · Oct 07, 2005, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Damn it. Forum ate my long, detailed post. I don't have the heart to rewrite it. Here's the digest version with me being surly due to the forum:

Well of suffering is powerful because enchant removal sucks anywhere else so enchant heavy builds are at an advantage.

Corpses are a resource, just like energy. The Death line is practically unviable without corpses and the only reason to run necrotic or putrid is to stop the other team from using it for something else. So you've got a whole line of skills that's unusable.

That ain't right. It's most certainly a problem. This is the only viable suggestion I've seen on how to fix it. Well, this and giving all corpse skills the same cast time but that amounts to the same thing.

Schorny · Oct 07, 2005, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroLion

Corpses are a resource, just like energy. The Death line is practically unviable without corpses and the only reason to run necrotic or putrid is to stop the other team from using it for something else. So you've got a whole line of skills that's unusable.

Unusable? What for? PvP?
Ever played tombs? I nearly always see Well of Profane and Suffering.

So it is a fact: death-skills are not unusable.

Forboding Angel · Oct 07, 2005, 11:18 PM // 23:18

I'm going to have to agree on this one that claiming corpses is a bad idea

/not signed

Iraqalypse Now · Oct 07, 2005, 11:24 PM // 23:24

/not signed

You want to take care of opponent's corpse denial? Kill their necro first.

AeroLion · Oct 08, 2005, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

Unusable? What for? PvP?
Ever played tombs? I nearly always see Well of Profane and Suffering.

So it is a fact: death-skills are not unusable.

Fair enough. But let's say enchant removal wasn't broken and rend, for example, removed all enchantments on target foe and adjacent foes. Would you really be worried about corpse denial then when any necro could do almost the same as profane without a corpse?

Sniper22 · Oct 08, 2005, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

/Signed, i want summoners back in the game and usefull! (Those were fun times...)

They are useful in pvp, more in gvg. Taking the corpse first is just a necro shut-down, deal with it, kill the necro using the corpses. I've had a problem making minions with a putrid necro before, although that was before the 5 sec recharge time, but just tell your group to kill the necro.

Schorny · Oct 08, 2005, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroLion

Fair enough. But let's say enchant removal wasn't broken and rend, for example, removed all enchantments on target foe and adjacent foes. Would you really be worried about corpse denial then when any necro could do almost the same as profane without a corpse?

What if, what if, what if,...

You would still need wells, for example Well of Suffering to force someone to go outside the ward. Or Well of the Profane on the altar...

But i don't understand your point. You said, if wells were useless corpse denial won't be important?
You still would want corpse denial for minions. But if minions are also useless - then yes - corpse denial won't be needed.

My point is:
if you want a big advantage out of a corpse, you need to spend time to get it. In this time, someone can steal your corpse. That is fair, because he won't get any big advantage. So there is a need for low casting time spells like Consume Corpse, Necrotic Traversal,... And there is a need for long casting spells like well of the profane, well of suffering,...

The only point we can argue about is: is there a need for 0 sec cooldown corpse spells? That is a valid point, but noone brought it up yet...

Orochim4ru · Oct 08, 2005, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Well of profane on the altar is common and feared. the OP hasn't pvped in a while.

Frost_ · Oct 08, 2005, 03:03 AM // 03:03

lol is this a joke? i can get off a well easy, try having one of your teamates interupt him, or kill their necro, or use fast cast, or dont be stupid and beat him to it. any of those will do

Rey Lentless · Oct 08, 2005, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schorny

Consider what will happen if corpses are claimed. Now you _never_ know if there is a corpse you can use. There is no way to know it. Therefore you really need to press buttons without thinking.

I explained why it would be bad. Noone proved me wrong. Please do so. I got arguments you can't ignore.

You can always use Glyph of Sacrifice to get the corpse, but at the moment it is really tactic. You need to decide if you try to bring up a well or just deny the corpse.

If corpses are claimed, you can no more run balls. Because you have no chance of removing all corpses. The well of profane will get up, no matter what you do.

So, everyone will have a Well of the Profane, because it is the best corpse exploiting skill in the game. Everyone will run Mantra of Resolve or Glyph of Concentration and the like. So you kicked all enchantments out of the game. Because now you pushed Well of the Profane to an uncounterable skill.

Move out of this well won't help you much: you already lost your defense. And if you are on an altar - you don't have the choice of moving away...

Today you need to think about what to do. You can use Glyph of Sacrifice for a Well, but you won't be able to do that again in a long time...

But if this idea of corpse claiming is introduced, you will get a well of the profane on the altar, no matter what the enemy does. You will get a well of suffering up too. And there is nothing, I repeat: NOTHING, the other team can do to prevent this. (except knockdowns, but knockdowns can't be kept up like interrupts).

Is this the balance you want?

PS:
to everyone who said Wells aren't used in PvP: you play tombs sometime?
I nearly every fight I see a few wells. Sure, some teams never cast wells, some do it more often. But isn't that exactly what it is supposed to be?

and a well of the profane on the altar IS godlike, because you stripped the hero for 20 seconds from all protection.

This is exactly right. I don't remember the last time I played with a necro without wotp, and by reading most of these threads.. I'd think it's a worthless skill. If you want your bigger advantage, and use a better corpse spell, do something about the other necro. Right now, all of them are useful, this change would have a downward spiral effect like he mentioned.

Putrid was broken because it could be spammed and be very powerful, now with it's 5 sec recharge.. it's pretty balanced. Nice, cheap, and effective, but can't be it's own little eoe like chain that fuels itself. That change in itself has made the other corpse skills more used, and this was really the only change needed.